The New Ambition

Redefining the Ladder: Jodi Innerfield on Resilience, Entrepreneurship, & Life After Tech Layoff

• Jen Phillips • Season 2 • Episode 2

Share episode

Text The New Ambition

In this episode of The New Ambition, Jen Phillips interviews Jodi Innerfield, a former Salesforce marketing leader turned fractional Marketing leader. 

Jodi shares her journey from climbing the corporate ladder to creating her own marketing consulting practice after being one of the 80,000+ U.S. tech workers caught up in 2025 layoffs. 

She discusses the importance of building psychological safety as a leader, why authentic storytelling matters more than ever, and how following your energy in a rapidly changing tech landscape is strategic career planning. 

You'll leave this conversation thinking about how to get prepared for career disruptions, the rare value of human stories in an AI-driven world, and the power of leaders who prove to their teams that healthy boundaries are good for business. 

Join the New Ambition: 

Connect with the amazing Jodi Innerfield: 






Like this episode? Subscribe to The New Ambition newsletter

The Very Important Bottom Line
The New Ambition does not provide medical or mental health advice. The information including but not limited to: recorded and live episodes, text, graphics, images, and any other material contained on the podcast are for your informational purposes only.

Nothing on The New Ambition is intended to substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified provider. Never disregard professional medical or mental wellness advice or delay in seeking it because of something you've heard or content you've read or reviewed on this podcast.

And please, if you're under duress or considering suicide, reach out right this very minute to the Suicide and Crisis lifeline by dialing 988 in the United States.

Outside of the U.S., please reach out to helplines available to you in your country note: this link isn't owned by The New Ambition and should not be considered exhaustive or wholly accurate.

Jen Phillips: [00:00:00] Hi, it's Jen and welcome or welcome back to The New Ambition. This is a podcast for tech leaders interested in healthy ways of working and leading, so we're able to experience success that does not cost us. Everything.

 I'm grateful that you're choosing to spend this time. Here with us. 

Today My guest is Jodi Innerfield. She's a former Salesforce marketing leader. She's a current entrepreneur, a storytelling expert, and the co-host of the AP Taylor Swift podcast. But here's what makes Jodi's story so powerful.

She is living proof that life after layoff can be beautifully unexpected. Jodi describes herself as a type A eldest daughter with an MBA built for corporate America, and for years that story served her well. She climbed the ladder with precision and with purpose until the day that her story got some [00:01:00] unexpected heavy edits.

Despite being a recognized top performer, Jodi was laid off joining the Over 80,000 tech workers who have lost their jobs in the US this year alone.

 And the timing of this conversation with Jodi could not be more critical with women in tech losing their jobs at 1.6 times the rate of our male counterparts 

 we cannot afford to wait until crisis hits to start preparing. And in fact, I would say crisis has hit. We can't wait until the layoff to build our options. We can't wait until we're burned out to start setting boundaries. 

 Ultimately, this is a conversation about rewriting your own story on your own terms, the business case for human-centric leadership, and why the most radical thing that you can do right now might be ending your workday when you said you would.

Here's my conversation with the inimitable Jodi Innerfield.

Jodi, [00:02:00] I couldn't be more excited to talk to you about your journey but also what happened to kick off where you are right now and the initiative for me to reach out to you, which was a really compelling and beautifully written LinkedIn post that described your journey from type A gold star student to MBA, to big tech, to now what, and that's where I want you to start is a little bit about that journey and what got you to the now what point.

I'm still type A, so that doesn't exactly go away.

Right.

Jodi Innerfield: think what changes is idea that you go from type A to corporate America to climbing the corporate ladder to where I'm at now, which is firmly off the corporate ladder. I don't know if, I guess firmly on solid ground if I wanna continue the metaphor, but I was laid off from that big tech job that I was doing really well at high [00:03:00] performer getting lots of praise and promotions and money.

That doesn't protect anybody from a layoff or from changes, sadly. And instead of looking for the next ladder to climb or looking for the next big tech job, which I thought about instead, I've landed in entrepreneurship and starting my own business and starting my own marketing consulting practice, which. Is the opposite of the journey that I'd been on because I had been on this very structured path where there's promotion after promotion. The end goal is some sort of leadership and praise and a title that everybody knows and knows what that signals to. Instead, I work for myself and I am the only one in charge of how much I get done in a day and I get to figure out what my own title is and it's on me to pitch who I am and what I'm doing. And there is no path. There [00:04:00] is no, here's where you have to get to in order and what you have to do in order to, get to the next level. I have to define all of that for myself and as a type A overachiever, I always thought I needed a path. I thought I needed. I thought I thrived on that structure and I'm realizing now. I can thrive without that structure. Not that I didn't thrive with it, I think I did, but it doesn't mean that I won't thrive without it. it's been scary, but it's also been totally rewarding and freeing. It's promotion season now and seeing all these promotion announcement on LinkedIn I do still get a little bit of PTSD, but more than that, I feel relief that I am not looking at other people getting promoted, meaning that I didn't get something. And I remember that feeling very clearly.

Jen Phillips: what motivated you as you were climbing up the [00:05:00] ladder was the next rung. 

But when it's defined for you, here is the ladder, here are the rungs you were really thinking you were built to climb that ladder.

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah. 'cause all my life, it was okay, get a hundred on your test, get a pluses, get good grades, be top of the class and you'll get rewarded and you'll get praise, and you'll get to be in the more challenging classes and you'll have more opportunities open to you. So why wouldn't that mentality then transfer to your corporate life, your professional life? Do well, get promoted, get recognized, more opportunities, more advancement. But that's not actually how it works. And nobody really prepares you for that.had to stop thinking that the school mentality of do this and you will be rewarded with this. It doesn't apply in the real world. It certainly doesn't apply in your professional life. [00:06:00] did for a little bit. I did. I got promoted, I got recognized. that's not guaranteed. we also grow up and live in a society where here's what you need to do to get X in order to be debt free.

Do these things in order to, be able to buy a house, do these things right. And that's not actually how any of it works, but

Jen Phillips: That's not the only way it works.

Jodi Innerfield: the only way. That's true.

Jen Phillips: Yeah.

Jodi Innerfield: other

Jen Phillips: Okay.

Jodi Innerfield: opportunities. There are other paths to take. for me it's taken being pushed off that path even have the opportunity to say what are the other options For me, because I was really scared to leave corporate America, I wanted to do my own thing.

I thought consulting would be something I'd be interested in, but I was not going to take the risk of leaving a stable full-time corporate job with benefits and pay to have none of that and to try and build something for myself. it's so funny 'cause I never thought of myself as a [00:07:00] risk taker. I still don't, I never thought of myself as entrepreneurial.

I now know that I am entrepreneurial the reason I still don't see what I'm doing as a risk is because it feels riskier now to go back to a full-time job when everybody I talk to that is at a full-time job is afraid of getting laid off.

Jen Phillips: And that's a really important thing to bring up no matter what the numbers bear repeating, especially for women, but in tech in general, the layoffs continue. Tech is at the tip of the spear of being transformed. it's an upheaval, like the way we work in tech, in the tech sector is going to change faster than most other industries.

And fortunately right now, we're recording this in August of 2025, what is happening is. Many more women are being displaced from their roles than men. Women are less than 30%, they're around 30% of the [00:08:00] workforce in tech, but they are, 65% more likely to be unseed from their role due to layoff.

 And why is that? A lot of people ask me why that is. The reason is because of the types of jobs that women are concentrated in inside of the tech sector. We are just overrepresented in some of the areas where, AI is already transforming how people work.

Marketing is one of those places, which is where you were lucky enough to spend your, a lot of your career. So yeah, there's an upheaval going. So when you're talking to your former co. You're hearing that anxiety. I talk to a lot of my former colleagues and I'm hearing the same anxiety as well.

And it's f it's pretty well founded Microsoft just this year has laid off 15,000 people.

Jodi Innerfield: it's

Jen Phillips: So this year to date, as of August. I just looked at the numbers. Yesterday. 85,000 people in the tech sector in the US have lost their jobs this year due to [00:09:00] layoffs. So that's why everyone's worried.

And you're saying, for the first time in your life, you felt it's actually more risky for me to go back to my tech job

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah.

Jen Phillips: to try this thing. I'm, I've always been.

Jodi Innerfield: what we talk about, don't put all your eggs in one basket, but that's exactly what we're doing when we're taking a full-time job. For better or for worse, I don't wanna knock at it. I don't wanna be one of those people that's like, Ugh, how terrible that is. No, I did it.

And that doesn't mean I'll never go back, but. I want, is something I've always wanted to try. This is my opportunity to try entrepreneurship and building my own business and my own marketing firm. at the same time, we are at this moment in time where there is so much instability in full-time work where tech is not the same as it was for many years. So this is the perfect time for me to take this opportunity and it's much, I see it as much less of a risk than I would have if I were still in a full-time job.

Jen Phillips: I can see that. [00:10:00] what you're really bringing up is there's more than one way. There's more than one ladder.

Jodi Innerfield: Absolutely.

Jen Phillips: more than one ladder. So your ladder that you had been on, which was the same ladder I was on my entire career, was incredibly stable against an incredibly stable wall for a really long time.

And so to have that become really unstable 

Jodi Innerfield: yeah.

Jen Phillips: pretty quickly gives us all of us the opportunity to think about, is there another way

Jodi Innerfield: right.

Jen Phillips: or, and if you're not thinking about it and you're listening to this conversation, it's time to start thinking about it. And that doesn't mean leaving tech.

Jodi Innerfield: not, and that's a conversation I have with a lot of people who are worried that their job isn't safe or they don't really know what they wanna do. What I say is, you don't have to start by leaving. That wasn't what I was going to do. I started by writing. I started by getting [00:11:00] my voice out there, developing my own perspective on marketing, and then I started by doing some side gigs, some things that were not at all competitive to what my company did, but how can I build my skills and build more importantly, build my confidence that. I could take my skillset and apply it outside of this company that I had worked at for so long. There's so many things you can do that don't involve, just like taking this big, huge risk and

Jen Phillips: Yeah. And you should, and the thing is, Even if you don't want to do a different thing, you need to have your eyes wide open that the way that the world is moving, you may not have a choice. You may have to evolve. you take all of your skills, which are still valuable with you, even if you shift the wall that the ladder is leaning on.

You can stay in tech, but you really need to be thinking about what's the progression of my career in line [00:12:00] with where the world is moving.

And for you, you've said, Hey, this is the perfect time for me to try something that I had been thinking about anyway,

But for the women that are Yeah. Yeah.

Jodi Innerfield: I honestly feel really lucky and I know that's for some, gonna a weird thing to say after getting laid off and losing your job, because I understand it's one of the most traumatic things that you can go through. But I feel lucky that I am at a place in my life where I can see this as an opportunity and I can seize it an opportunity.

And I think so much of that is because when I saw the layoffs starting in 2023 and saw my friends get impacted after they had been at companies for 10 plus years. thought, okay, what would I do if that happens to me? And I started preparing. To your point, you don't start by leaving. You start by just preparing yourself.

So for me, that meant financially, making sure that I could support myself if I lost my job. And that also meant building my life and perspective and voice [00:13:00] outside of my full-time job, so that I had an identity, both personal and professional, outside of my full-time job. That way, if the rug was ever pulled out from under me and I, that full-time job wasn't there, I'd still have what I felt was a significant life.

It wouldn't be like, oh my God, I just went from a hundred to zero, and that's exactly what happened to me, which I feel really grateful for.

Jen Phillips: you told me in a conversation we've had earlier about talking to your team about the preparations that you were making. Could you talk a little bit about that now?

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah, back in 2023 when that, when Salesforce had the first major layoffs, many tech companies had those first major layoffs. I remember sitting down with my team. Luckily, nobody on my direct reports was impacted, but we had people on our broader team that were, and I recall correctly, one of the things I said to them was, I had no visibility into this.

We, we often do not, there's [00:14:00] a lot that's outside of our control, but what is within your control is to make sure that you have a life outside of work, that this job is not your identity. That makes sure that you financially are set up so that you could support yourself without this job for a time, but also make sure emotionally that you have hobbies and interests and a support system outside of this job. That is yours that nobody can take away. And again, that's a mix of personally having hobbies and volunteer opportunities and that type of thing, and friends, but also professionally, how can you build a professional identity for yourself? That's based on what you said earlier, all of those skills and experiences that you take with you no matter where you're working. I think that, I have a love hate relationship with LinkedIn, it works. That's where you can build your brand your identity [00:15:00] separate from your company. That's your platform. I know I feel like a lot of companies ask you to post, especially in marketing and sales, they want you to post about what the company is doing and go use that as a promotional opportunity free.

By the way, you're giving free marketing to your company, but really we should be using this to brand ourselves and to position yourself and who you are as a professional, your company. This is your space. And so that's the feed. That's the. Insight. I was the whole wisdom. I don't know. It was a little wise.

Jen Phillips: I say it's wisdom. I say Own it. Yeah, it was foresight. Honestly. It was foresight and you stepped into an uncomfortable situation and discussion with people that needed answers that you couldn't give, and that in and of itself is rare. A lot of leaders try to avoid that conversation and you at least came with, this is how I'm handling this.

I don't have all the answers for you, but I know this so important.

Jodi Innerfield: yeah. It's important to have [00:16:00] some sort, not try to control the things you can't control. This is just in life, but what can you control when That's my coping mechanism always is, all right, what can I do in this situation? So much of this situation is out of my control. What is within my control that I can feel I can do something, and I, that's that advice that I gave was a mix of. Things that I can do for myself, but also something I can do for my team because I think it was such, and I talk about it in the past tense as these initial wave of layoffs, but it's actually the present tense because there's just constant layoffs and

 It's very hard to work, let alone lead when there is so much tension, anxiety, and unknown on your team.

And the least thing you can do as a leader, in my opinion, is not contribute to that anxiety and that unknown

Jen Phillips: right. Exactly and listen for all of the leaders that are listening right now you're also human. [00:17:00] So having been, and you were a leader, you were going through the same level or at least a level of uncertainty and fear and doubt that, your way of handling it was to spring into some pretty, pretty forward thinking action.

That's not everybody's mo right? Not everybody has the foresight to do that. I I appreciate that you did and I invite every single leader that's listening now to think through what's one small thing I can do to admit there's an elephant in the room right now? And to at least be a little bit authentic and say.

If you haven't already how are you doing? This is uncomfortable for me too, and I don't have all the answers, but here's what I do know and here's some things that I've heard could be helpful to to help you navigate. And I've tried 'em and they work or I've tried 'em and they didn't work for me, but I've heard they work.

I think you just gotta start the conversation is the point

Jodi Innerfield: For sure. Treat people like humans. That's it. At the end of the day, if you don't [00:18:00] know what you're doing, remember that you're leading people, how would you want to be communicated to in this situation? That's it. Probably

and have however much transparency as you can give. That's what your team needs.

Jen Phillips: Exactly, and that doesn't feel like enough. And not everyone will be happy or satisfied with that, but at least you have given an example of a leader that can lean into something super uncomfortable and say, this is super uncomfortable and I wish I could tell you more, but right now, you know what I know, or what I am in a position to be sharing right now.

People don't like that answer either. I knew a lot because of my position and my directs, my leadership team was very very used to me saying things like. This is all I'm in a position to share right now, but here's what I would recommend that you do with this information and how I'm happy to come and talk to your team about it.

I'm happy to take any heat for people not being really happy with that level of answer. [00:19:00] It's not enough. I get it. But that's what we can talk about right now.

Jodi Innerfield: right? That's you being as transparent as you can be. Transparency doesn't mean sharing absolutely everything.

Jen Phillips: that's right.

Jodi Innerfield: sharing what you can.

Jen Phillips: So important, such an important distinction because people freak out when you're like, lean in, be a little authentic. And they're like, oh, I don't wanna put all my dirty laundry out there. I'm like, nobody said that.

Jodi Innerfield: no.

Jen Phillips: Not one time.

Jodi Innerfield: Transparency is sharing what you can share. so you saying, I'm sharing with you as much as I can share is transparency because you're acknowledging that there's more that you know that if you could, you would share with your team. That builds way, much, way more trust than saying, this is all I know. When everybody knows, more.

Jen Phillips: Yeah, a hundred percent. 

The top trait that our teams want from us is hope.

Jodi Innerfield: Oh

Jen Phillips: there's nothing [00:20:00] wrong with being an emotional person. There's nothing wrong at all. But what you have to think about is this the right room?

Jodi Innerfield: right?

Jen Phillips: And if not, how can I bring hope into the situation, not negate what's going on with me, but how can I bring a hopefulness to this? Exactly. So you, the way you did it, is you explained what you did know and what you didn't know. And then you said, here's what I'm doing about it and what I recommend that you do too, because you are more than your job.

You have more to give. Your superpowers are portable. And if you have a plan, no matter what happens, you're ready.

Jodi Innerfield: fine. Yeah.

Jen Phillips: And that's hope. It's maybe not the hope they wanted.

Jodi Innerfield: It's the

Jen Phillips: It is.

Jodi Innerfield: time.

Jen Phillips: That's right. So powerful and really, again, rare. I talk to a lot of leaders and that's one of the most uncomfortable things right now, especially leaders that are now leading.

Instead of having six or five directs, they have 15 or [00:21:00] 18 directs. And that's happening because organizations are being flattened and spans and layers are being compressed. So now

Jodi Innerfield: is like my least favorite phrase.

Jen Phillips: yeah, me too, not my favorite. But the spans and layers are being compressed and in tech specifically so far outside what is tenable for leaders and for managers.

And the anger that comes at managers from the bottom up because they don't have time to do, they don't feel they have time to do a GREAT job and from the top down because they're also expected somehow to be working. So it's just a really tough time.

Jodi Innerfield: why I don't wanna go back to corporate?

Jen Phillips: I. I get it. I do get it.

But what my hope is that for the people that wanna stay in, they can learn from some of the brave ways that you are super healthy while you are in, and now that you are out on how to how to navigate.

Jodi Innerfield: you can absolutely [00:22:00] build a mix of resilience and like this healthy detachment, and I know the word detachment is. Not a positive word, but I do think, especially for women, we need to build this more emotional distance from our jobs because otherwise we want to give a hundred percent to everything. And why give a hundred percent to a job that will never give you 100% back? Let's just, you can do a good job and be a GREAT leader, and be GREAT at your job without giving all of yourself so that you have nothing left for you or for your family or your personal life.

Jen Phillips: actually, the term psychological detachment is not only a good word, it's a GREAT practice. Psychological detachment is when we, at the end of the day, we one, we have an end of the day,

Jodi Innerfield: Ha. Look at that novel idea.

Jen Phillips: we have an end of the day. We have an end of the day. And not only do we have an end of the day, but we.

[00:23:00] Use that time not to be thinking about work, But to take time for something completely outside of work that removes your mind's rumination on work. 

when you go back into the workplace the next day and the next morning whenever you are actually more resilient, more energized, more creative, and more innovative for having done it. And the studies prove that.

Jodi Innerfield: I remember trying to explain to a leader that I supported once, that I needed to fully disconnect on the weekends. Like I'm the type of person that needs to not check my email or not just see what was happening on Slack on a Saturday morning, because otherwise I can't fully. Disconnect and I won't be able to give 100% on Monday morning if I was giving 25% all weekend if I never put the laptop away, put the work phone away and walked away.

And that was like such a foreign concept to this person and to many people, sadly. But I've always been like that. I've, I was never even the kid [00:24:00] in growing up that could pull an all nighter like no. Eight o'clock in, nine o'clock, 10 o'clock, the latest I'm going to bed because there's no more, me giving more isn't going to turn into a better output. And so that kind of just always carried with me that like I have to turn off and recharge. I had a job where I didn't have that boundary and I was burnt out. And so emotionally drained from that experience that when I started my job at Salesforce, I was like, I cannot work that way. And there were times in my career at Salesforce where I had to go put things back together and I saw things creeping in and I needed to relay those boundaries. But for the last, like good number of years, I've been very good at those boundaries.

'cause I need to reset.

Jen Phillips: And did that trickle down into the way your team worked?

Jodi Innerfield: I was really glad that I had these boundaries in place as an individual contributor, because then it meant that I got to set those expectations a leader. [00:25:00] And especially because I had managers and leaders who worked very differently for me, who would send emails on weekends and at late at night, and I had to say to them, Hey, I just wanna make sure I understand.

Is it your expectation that I respond when you send the email? And they were like no. My expectation is that you respond when it's convenient to you. And I was like, huh, that's interesting. Like I doesn't feel that way. I know you're saying that to me. I know, but it doesn't feel that way. So I then knew that when I started managing people, A, I need to not wait for someone to come to me and clarify my expectations.

Jen Phillips: Because 

Jodi Innerfield: they

Jen Phillips: they won't come to you.

Jodi Innerfield: They won't. So I did a couple things outta the gate when I had just started leading even just one person. I created an operating manual for myself that says, here's who I am, here's how I work, here's my, these are all the things that you would learn about me by working with me, but let me just take getting to know you part out of it.

Here's what you need to know. I had them create one too, so that I understood their [00:26:00] expectations of how they like to work, what they expect of me. 

 they'd write it down, and then we'd come and we'd discuss them. And I'd say, listen, I can't promise you that you'll never have

You hate doing, but it's good for me to know. I won't, overload you with the types of tasks that drain you. so I did those things out of the gate to set expectations, but then it's, as a leader, it's about continually resetting those expectations.

Jen Phillips: right.

Jodi Innerfield: I would go on vacation, I would create an out of office document And this was a mix of for my team's visibility, but also for my manager's visibility or for, my GM's visibility. who needed to interface with me would know, here's everything that's going on my team, who's responsible, and what will get done this week. And it also at the top said, I'm out of office from this day to this day, I will not have access to my phone or my email. Contact this person here's who you contact if you have questions and it's not me.

And that's setting an expectation for my team. So it's doing that, but then it's also not actually checking in and not [00:27:00] checking up on them. that was made easier by me never bringing my phone or my laptop with me on vacation. 'cause it removes the temptation to check in.

Jen Phillips: you talked about the leader that you worked for that sent the weekend emails,

Jodi Innerfield: were fun.

Jen Phillips: and you had the foresight to be able to go and say, Hey, I just wanna check in.

Is this, what is your expectation here? Because it was giving you,

Jodi Innerfield: because I would do things like

Jen Phillips: It would be the best for me. I would've loved that. But yeah, you, so you asked, right?

Jodi Innerfield: asked. Yeah.

Jen Phillips: That's GREAT. But I don't think maybe 50% of people I don't think people could, especially in this, he, this heightened anxiety.

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah,

Jen Phillips: the message that this, guy was sending was, this is convenient for me.

And since you're asking, you don't have to feel like the way you're feeling.

Jodi Innerfield: right.

Jen Phillips: of saying, oh, now that I understand you feel that way, I'll just schedule it for [00:28:00] when your business orders.So first of all, the way that you're feeling is how people feel when they get that email. It doesn't matter, even if you understand the expectation, your work has now crept into your life and.

Jodi Innerfield: a leader had to be really careful to not, to do the same thing like I'm on the east coast, most of my team was on the west coast. I would wake up at six in the morning and go through my slacks and respond to a couple. I had to be really careful and start schedule sending them like just be, I didn't want anybody to have that expectation that they needed to respond at 4:00 AM their

Jen Phillips: But we have the technology to do that. That's what I'm getting at, and it's such a small adjustment for the person that's doing the sending,

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah.

Jen Phillips: but it means so much, it, the signal couldn't be clearer

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah.

Jen Phillips: that I'm actually respecting your time outside of work.

Jodi Innerfield: I also don't want my team to think that they need to be doing anything at 6:00 AM their time. That's when it was convenient for me. So that's what I did.

Jen Phillips: [00:29:00] Right.

Jodi Innerfield: I know so many people who would much prefer to work 9, 10, 11 o'clock at night after their kids go to bed. A, I don't have kids, but B don't you don't want me writing anything at 10, 11 o'clock at night? It's not gonna be

I would never, but everybody has different rhythms and how they like to work and how they like to operate. And I think as a leader you have to respect that. But I also, I had situations where I had a team member who I saw was, doing things at 9, 10, 11 o'clock at night and I had to talk to their manager and be like, Hey, if this is within their like eight hours of work and they've signing off at three to get deal with their kids and then signing up, fine. But I just need you to monitor and make sure this is not. work, creeping into life because, just because it's convenient, it, again, to your point, we have the technology to work all the time. You have to constantly monitor and evaluate Am I, is this did I really need to respond at 6:00 AM No, but

Jen Phillips: No,

Jodi Innerfield: anxiety 

Jen Phillips: it's important to have really clear communications on when the work's [00:30:00] gonna happen for the team and when it won't.

And then if you as a person on the team needs to work outside that for the good of your own life, that's your call. But just respect what we have called in the past team agreements. But a lot of times that's just not even spoken.

Jodi Innerfield: It's not spoken. And I also think it takes a lot of discipline to work outside the nine to five, right? So I think you also have to like constantly check in am I creating boundaries or is this actually creating scope creep, for lack of a better term? And then as a leader, you also wanna do the same thing. 

Jen Phillips: Right.

Jodi Innerfield: check in with your team. Say I just wanna, make sure you're not always on that this is you what's convenient, but you also are taking a break and you are

Jen Phillips: Yeah.

Jodi Innerfield: to reset.

Jen Phillips: And you setting the example of actually going on a vacation and taking the vacation. It's August. I've had a lot of conversations in the last three weeks that have been either right before or right after somebody's time [00:31:00] away, and nobody's not stressed out about taking time away.

Right now that I'm talking to. They're either coming back and they're like, oof, I almost wish I hadn't gone. Or they're trying to lead up to it and trying to clear their desk and saying, I'm probably gonna work two of the five days, or three of the five days, or how, whatever percentage of the time.

what you've set an GREAT example on is you create that map of who's gonna be doing what and when, make it abundantly clear, review it all the way up that you need to review it all the way across and down, and then flipping live it.

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah. You have to live it because if you don't, people are gonna say, oh, I know Jody's checking emails. She'll get that one. I had that experience too, where a manager went on vacation for a week or two, and that was an opportunity for me. I was an individual contributor at the time to say, okay, GREAT.

I'm stepping up when something comes in if we're both CC'd. I got this. And so I would do that. I'd respond and see that our emails crossed paths because she was actually on, and it was a woman, she was online, she was responding. I had to say to her like, [00:32:00] Hey, if you're away, expectation is that I am responsible for this and I will jump on this because you are away. Are you working? Are you not working? And so I think that

Jen Phillips: then that also, that leader set a really terrible example for you because now you think, when I go on my vacation, this is the expectation

Jodi Innerfield: I'm pretty defiant and I was like, I will never do that,

Jen Phillips: that's you. 

Jodi Innerfield: I know how it makes people feel because I'm hearing how it's making people feel. Yeah,

The reframe as a leader is I'm not showing my team that I trust them.

Jen Phillips: exactly.

Jodi Innerfield: in when I'm on vacation, I'm not giving my team an opportunity to step up to take on more. And I think that you are never going to be able to disconnect and take that full vacation if you don't give your team the opportunity

Jen Phillips: And along the way, the people that you're trying to protect, you're actually showing them, not only do I not trust you, [00:33:00] but I'm setting the example that to get to my level, you've gotta burn all the way out.

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah. Which is why I never wanted to be your level. So I just, I didn't like, I saw too many phenomenal leaders. not just at Corporate America. I was in film production, my first job outta college and was a, an office and a set pa, right? I was the peon and I was working for these two amazing female producers, Oscar nominated Golden Globe,

Jen Phillips: Wow.

Jodi Innerfield: and this was the second film I was on with them.

And at the time my grandfather was in the hospital. He was fine at that point, but like he was in the hospital and I didn't have time to go visit him. The hospital was literally a one and a half minute drive from my house, but I was leaving the house at five 30 in the morning. I was getting home at 10, 10 30 at night.

I didn't have time to see him. And I looked at these two women who were at the top of their careers and they [00:34:00] too. always working. They didn't have families of their own. And I thought, that's not how I want my life to be. And I was 21 at the time. so that's always been my mentality that I, yes, I'm type A career motivated, wanna climb the ladder, but I'm only to an extent that there is something I won't sacrifice for myself in order to get there.

And I wanna do it on my terms. 

Jen Phillips: After being laid off from a job that you had worked on climbing the ladder for as the path that was, the path was the ladder, you made conscious decisions to go for it

And to do your own thing.

And like you said, that doesn't mean you're not still a type A person, but you're living a life that you're designing

Based on what energizes you and based on your skills. So it's so powerful and I'm sure it's, I'm sure it's [00:35:00] scary.

Jodi Innerfield: yeah.

So much more fulfilling to start each day and say what energizes me? Yeah, there are thing, I have clients, there are things I have to get done for by clients. Those will get done, but they also get done within the frame of, okay, I need to swim this morning because swimming gives me energy.

It lets me think, or I'm gonna have a couple of calls with. Some with potential clients, some for a volunteer thing that I do. Some just networking and getting to know new people. And so I have so much more freedom and flexibility in the projects that I take on in how I spend my time and my day. And I think that means that I am following my energy

Jen Phillips: Right.

Jodi Innerfield: I don't the day drained. end the day energized and excited. And I can't tell you the last time I felt that way, maybe business school was probably the last time

Jen Phillips: Wow.

Jodi Innerfield: [00:36:00] I did that. So not work, right? I haven't had a professional experience where I could have a very full, very busy day and not be drained. And it's 'cause I get to set what the day looks like. I get to put my energy and my time where it makes sense for me on that given day and in that given hour, which is. freeing. That autonomy is something I think I always wanted in my corporate career that you think you get as you climb the ladder, but really you, you don't get, you don't

Jen Phillips: No,

Jodi Innerfield: As you get closer to the

Jen Phillips: I was pretty lucky because if you have. A particular skillset that's, especially if you're lucky enough to have something that you're really good at that everyone finds boring, then you, I did get a fair bit of autonomy through my career, but Yeah, you don't own all of it. That's true though also of entrepreneurism. But like, But like you said, you are choosing, you are getting to weigh out more of the [00:37:00] equation.

Jodi Innerfield: I have more control than I used to, whether that's in the clients I do and don't take on how much I charge the type of work that I do, more or less how I spend my day. And that really that flexibility and that autonomy is just really freeing.

Jen Phillips: following your energy, especially right now, is so important. Yes. 

Tech is unstable in the current moment, but the tech sector is growing. It's just growing in kind of a different direction than it would had been projected, let's say, like even a year and a half ago. So if you are going where tech is going and you wanna stay in corporate America, you can right now build a plan.

That follows your energy. You can follow your curiosity into emerging, roles that are more secure than legacy or kind of traditional roles. So I think that's an incredibly important thing that you've [00:38:00] learned as an entrepreneur. people are the CEOs of their own careers, regardless of if they have their own company or their own job within the doors of a company.

we can't lose that ownership of that responsibility to grow in the direction of our curiosity,

Jodi Innerfield: Absolutely, you can stay in your full-time job, but also think about your career beyond the four walls of your full-time job. I have a friend who works at a company where they have an education stipend, which I think many tech companies do, but the caveat on their education stipend is they have to use it for something that's outside of their job.

Jen Phillips: love.

Jodi Innerfield: and it's an ed tech company, they want people to build skills beyond what they do in their day-to-day job. Because building a complimentary skill that seemingly has nothing to do with your full-time job often helps you be better

Jen Phillips: And more creative. Yeah, you come in with a different set of perspectives than if you only focused [00:39:00] on your lane.

Jodi Innerfield: correct. She was like, oh, maybe I'll take an improv class. Do you know how GREAT improv is for getting in front of clients and customers and public speaking? That's amazing. And that's I think a small thing that you can do and leaders can give permission for their teams to do.

Please build your life, find your creative outlet that has nothing to do with your job. One thing we used to do, I'm just remembering at my team meetings every week I had a team where. As there were reorgs in the organization, I kept inheriting people, maybe one person, maybe three people. And so I had this kind of like mishmash of a team.

I say that lovingly we had a weekly team meeting and I wanted them to get to know each other. And so we did this thing called Hilo Buffalo.

every person goes around, what's your high for the week, what's your low for the week?

And the buffalo is a question. And every week it was a different question. It could be, what's your favorite color, what's your favorite candy? And the highs and lows could also, sometimes they were work related, sometimes they weren't work related.

[00:40:00] But the whole thing was about getting to know someone. And the best and the best highs and lows were the ones that had nothing to do. With your job, but also just gave people more insight into who you are as an individual and as a person. And so if someone came in and was like, my high was that my kid said, it's his first word and my low was that he then got a cold and I and has been home without daycare, that also gives you more insight into this person.

And why? Oh, they weren't mad at me. Like they're probably tired. 'cause they're also trying to juggle taking care of their kid doing their full-time job. And so there's just so many benefits to giving your team permission to be authentically themselves and to build their life outside of their full-time job.

But we're all moving so fast and so scared of layoffs and disruption all we can think about is the KPIs we need to hit. It's if you just give people space

And time and the ability to be [00:41:00] creative, you could be so much more successful as a team, as a company. But I feel like we've lost so much of that because there's just so much uncertainty right now. There's a lot of fear and anxiety.

Jen Phillips: And I think when we know each other as people as well, that brings in that ability to work a little bit more collaboratively with empathy.

Jodi Innerfield: yeah. We've lost a lot of that in this like AI race. We focus so much on the tools and the artificial intelligence and the technology that like streamlines and scales everything. And we've lost the fact that like at the end of the day, you still need people and you still have people on your team, and let's treat people. Like people, you're not going to replace people entirely

Treat people like you treat your AI agentic agents. But that's not where we are right now, culturally, so

Jen Phillips: no, we're too tired, too anxious. It is really sad. But let's take it up a notch and talk about the idea of storytelling and authenticity in the [00:42:00] face of ai. So tell me a little bit about what you're doing now and why story has never been more important than it is right now.

Jodi Innerfield: I am a fractional marketing leader and I do marketing strategy. Everything from strategic. Product marketing initiatives, product launches, messaging and positioning for teams. I'll do team coaching and capability building. So for all those teams, team leaders, VPs, SVPs of marketing that are stressed and have no time to support building their team skillsets and coaching them, I can come in and help be that fractional leader and give that advice that those, revisions so that the team gets the skill sets that they need, but also the leader sees a better first pass product at what they're trying to get done. And I also do workshops, in particular storytelling workshops because whether you're a marketer or a sales person or operations person, storytelling is the key to how we communicate as humans. as [00:43:00] children, it stories are the first words we often hear and. It's what still resonates with us as adults, going to the movies or reading books or just watching tv, we all tap into the connect human connection stories. And so I coach and give workshops on storytelling from a marketing perspective, but I've also found the need to really lean in myself into telling my own stories.

As, my stories around my layoff, around leaving the corporate ladder. And I've seen that, I now post a lot on LinkedIn and in a newsletter and all these things. And the thing that resonates most with people hands down are those authentic personal stories that I tell about myself that often have nothing to do with marketing, but that make people go, oh my God, I felt that too.

Or, I've had that same experience. Thank you so much for sharing and for putting that into words. And that. how much we are lacking those [00:44:00] authentic personal stories right now. And yes, they have huge value in marketing, and if you're trying to sell something, personal stories really resonate. if you are just trying to create connection, whether you're a leader, building a team, or whether you're networking or you're just trying to make friends, those personal stories, at the end of the day, in a world where everything is artificial intelligence and leaning into the personal stories and who you are and where you come from and what matters to you, really helped build in a way that I think I really underestimated until now.

Jen Phillips: when I finally came out and said, I'm leaving this role, and I'll be honest, it's because I've let myself get to a point of burnout that's unsustainable for me, and I need to do this.

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah.

Jen Phillips: People I thought were absolutely fine.

Jodi Innerfield: We're not,

Jen Phillips: Were not,

Jodi Innerfield: yeah,

Jen Phillips: I had a lot of behind the scenes conversations with people that just wanted to be [00:45:00] heard.

I still do to this day every week, I.

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah. the thing that people keep reaching out to me about, or the reason old team members reach out to me is not because I was a GREAT marketer, or, I taught them, positioning and messaging, but because I was I'm a New Yorker, I'm direct, and so I, I do share what's on my mind.

Again, going back to our conversation around transparency, there's limits to the level of which I will share, but. do tend to lean on the side of sharing my vulnerabilities and what's going on. And if something's hard, I'll say, having a hard time this week. Here's what I can share with you about it.

Here's what I need from you all, and thank you for giving me that space. And I often will get people reaching back out to me because of those connections versus you were a really GREAT marketer, which is fine. I'd

Jen Phillips: Yeah.

Jodi Innerfield: with people on a human level.

Jen Phillips: We wanna do business with and have relationships with people that we understand something about. if it's all surface, there's nothing to grab [00:46:00] onto, really. And then the other thing is, it's so rare right now to have vulnerability at anywhere. Everything that you see, on LinkedIn and on kind of social channels and in Slack and in teams, just anywhere, anything you're seeing about a person is carefully arranged.

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah.

Jen Phillips: it's curated. That's a GREAT way to say

Jodi Innerfield: Even

Jen Phillips: curated.

Jodi Innerfield: is curated, if I'm being honest,

Jen Phillips: A thousand percent.

Jodi Innerfield: Brene Brown. I'm reading Daring GREATly. and obviously it's all about vulnerability in the importance of vulnerability, but she says something important where, yes, you wanna share your vulnerability, but not you're processing it, then you're sharing when you're still in this raw place where people's reactions and responses could really harm you. share from a place of vulnerability when you've processed and when you understand where you're coming from, that way you don't expect people to make you feel better and or if they're gonna [00:47:00] judge you that it's gonna hurt you. And so the vulnerability is. Curated, but I agree with you. It's rare even still to see people share authentic challenges or weaknesses or times they've failed. And especially now when everything is about AI productivity and doing things faster and better and you feel like, oh, if I share that I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I messed up on this thing. I'm gonna be first on the chopping block for a layoff,

Jen Phillips: Yeah.

Jodi Innerfield: it. Again, I understand why people feel scared to share about personal authentic selves, is maybe why feel it's even more important that now that I don't, I'm not tied to a corporate entity, that I can share these authentic stories because I'm the only one grading my performance.

Although I did have chat, GPT and Claude give me a performance review. That was fun.

Jen Phillips: I saw that very fascinating. Let's link that to the notes [00:48:00] because I thought that was so fascinating. Tell, talk about that just for a minute. I really want you to share that.

Jodi Innerfield: months of working for myself and I was like I want my six month review. How do I get a six month review? And I've been using both ChatGPT and Claude pretty heavily for various parts of my business. Everything from writing proposals and doing, understanding the operations and pipeline metrics to, I use it a lot to give me feedback on my writing or to take podcasts I've been on and say, Hey, come up with 10 ideas for posts based on this content. And so I just gave it a prompt that was like, you're my manager. I am been six months in my entrepreneurship business. Give use KPIs, give me thorough feedback. And it was, they were both complimentary as LLMs are want to be. So then I had to, re-prompt it, Hey, be direct, be more critical of my work.

And it was. You take it with a grain of salt in the same way that you should probably take your reviews at [00:49:00] work with a grain of salt, because it's one person's perspective. But it's I think it's important. I also did a self review. What am I proud of? What did I accomplish? Because that's always the more important part of any performance review, and no matter who's giving it, is what do I think about what I've done and how would I classify my accomplishments or my setbacks and my challenges. And so it was very interesting to see what AI thought, how

Jen Phillips: What did AI think? How'd you do?

Jodi Innerfield: I was very successful. I think it gave me a, after all the back and forth, it was like a 4.1 out a five that I'm doing pretty better than the, other new business owners at six months in, in terms of relationship building and pipeline and pricing. at the same time, I have opportunities to grow and scale and that I'm a very relationship driven, business, and I need to find opportunities outside of my one-on-one network. How do I'm at risk of burnout. [00:50:00] Risk of overachieving burnout because as a sole entrepreneur

Jen Phillips: True to type.

Jodi Innerfield: right? I was like, this sounds, this is the harsh and so true. I would say using AI for this type of thing. I use it for my business operations dashboard and for my writing. And again, I take it all with a grain of salt. Thank you for the feedback. always one or two things where I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Let me take that.

But I'm not gonna go and build my whole business based on what Claude or ChatGPT think of me or my business. Because at the end of the day, I have no idea what it's actually pulling this insight from.

I'm a tech savvy. Skeptic.

Jen Phillips: as we all should be, whether we're tech savvy or not.

We talked about the idea of story and the importance of story for authenticity. And you've talked about how you're helping People and brands tell their stories 

AI is doing so much of the writing and storytelling that's out there. what do you think the importance of [00:51:00] authentic storytelling is in this age of ai? 

Jodi Innerfield: AI literally stands for artificial intelligence, we have to put the human back in intelligence. storytelling gives us an opportunity to be vulnerable, share who we are as humans. And sadly, to standout from the crowd. I feel like there was probably a day when authentic storytelling was the norm, and now it's just not.

Now. There are so many tells in how people are using AI in their posts and in their content, and you really have an opportunity to stand out by having a voice and a perspective is your own, and that is based on your own experience that an LLM [00:52:00] is not gonna pull from. we are hungry for authentic connection.

Just like coming out of COVID. We were hungry for in-person tactile experiences. right now we're hungry for perspective and point of view. I don't think AI can ever really give you a point of view because it's doesn't have lived experiences. have lived experiences. You have your experience of burnout and of climbing the ladder and of not feeling the success that you felt you should because of how stressful it was. And that comes through in everything you write and everything you communicate. There's passion there. There's a why behind everything you're saying. me, my experience of climbing the corporate ladder and then realizing that this wasn't for me, but being scared to jump off and then sharing that, like here I was this high performing. Very successful person that was laid off, [00:53:00] but I'm thriving outside of this world that I thought I was supposed to thrive in. That's a story that's very unique to me, and so many people are scared to share their own stories, but they're not afraid to recognize it 

Jen Phillips: Yeah,

Jodi Innerfield: we speak on behalf of the people that are too scared to share their story or who maybe haven't been able to articulate their story are still in that part of vulnerability where they're not, they're still processing, so they're not ready to share it.

So it's really important to share our authentic stories for all those people who are still processing so that they can get to the point of sharing their own stories.

Jen Phillips: whether it's broadly or not 

Jodi Innerfield: yeah, it doesn't matter. You

Jen Phillips: I think

Jodi Innerfield: and post it on the internet, but you

Jen Phillips: right.

Jodi Innerfield: get to a point where you understand who you are and where you've come from, and feel comfortable in your one-on-one or personal relationships, sharing who you are and what makes you who you are and why you're reacting or responding the way you are.

Like that's being [00:54:00] authentic in a

Jen Phillips: Okay,

Jodi Innerfield: environment, and that's GREAT. And that's rare, sadly.

Jen Phillips: You just described the why behind the authentic storytelling, and what you really show is that even if you are the hero of the story, you, the story you're telling about you, you are the hero of your story. For the people that are worried about layoffs, for the people that are considering making the leap, for the people that have the same wonder, is this what I really want?

Or maybe should I do something for myself to have that example out there, they can. Insert themselves into the center, into the hero spot of that story and imagine it in a way that's much more real because you've brought it to life. And so that's a way to, you're leading. You're still leading,

Jodi Innerfield: Can't

Jen Phillips: still you're, yeah.

But it's such an important gift

Jodi Innerfield: yes,

Jen Phillips: that you're giving by putting that story out there.

Jodi Innerfield: journey. Joseph Campbell, it's wise. I get to say Star Wars, but I've never seen [00:55:00] Star Wars. I probably shouldn't use that

Jen Phillips: Okay.

Jodi Innerfield: I know, right? That's a whole other topic. At some point, it's just a point of pride.

And one day I'll sit down and watch them all Harry Potter, Superman. I just saw all of these stories because of that hero's journey. Not because we think that we can be the wizard or the superhero saving the lives, but we. Connect with the challenges, the emotional challenges,

And we see ourselves in some capacity, in some fragment of these stories. And you don't have to be a major motion picture to a story that has you, a relatable hero and a challenge and vulnerabilities that can help somebody discover something about themselves.

Jen Phillips: So true, and I'm going to give you a minute to tell us how do we follow your story? How do we stay in touch with you, Jody?

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah. You can find more about my marketing [00:56:00] work, fractional marketing leadership@jodybeth.com. You can find me on. at Jody Talks. You can find me on LinkedIn. Jody Infield. We'll put it all

Jen Phillips: We're going to put it all, but you're leaving out one major. Yeah.

Jodi Innerfield: Yeah. Oh my pride and joy. I have a podcast called AP Swift.

AP stands for Advanced Placement. I did say I was a type A gold star student, and this podcast is evidence of that. We do deep reading and literary analysis of Taylor Swift's lyrics, and it's so much fun. You wanna talk about storytelling and leadership and marketing and nerding out all in one. podcast is like the perfect amalgamation of all of the things we talked about today, but like with Taylor Swift lyrics throughout.

Jen Phillips: So even better. we're gonna link all of that to the show notes. what really. [00:57:00] Makes me so happy is that you're a really rare person who does not understand how valuable the lessons that you're living are to other people and how incredibly rare I've had the pleasure and the honor of leading a lot of people.

The way that you led by example is really special and important, and I want more people to understand that you can do that and not have everything break.

Jodi Innerfield: thank you. I had GREAT. that I worked directly for, that I worked underneath that modeled that for me. And I think them showing vulnerability and their transparency me feel comfortable that I could do the same for my team. thank you for saying that about me.

But I have to give the credit to the women, mostly women, maybe a couple men I wanna give the men get credit to. I

Think of handful of leaders who really modeled that for me and showed me that you can be a [00:58:00] GREAT leader and still be an authentic person at the end of the day.

Jen Phillips: And everything doesn't break. And actually people are happier and they wanna stay and they wanna work harder together because of it.

Jodi Innerfield: absolutely.

Jen Phillips: Thank you Jodi, for being here. I appreciate you so much, and I think you've given us a lot to think about.

Jodi Innerfield: Thank you for having me. It was

Jen Phillips: I.

Jodi Innerfield: being here.

and that was Jodi Innerfield. Her journey from Built for Corporate America to building something entirely her own is exactly why the new ambition exists. This podcast is here to show that there are multiple paths to success, and the healthiest ones can look nothing like what we had originally planned.

Three things from our conversation that I hope will stick with you First. Jodi's reminder that psychological safety is not just top down. And second, her insight that authentic storytelling becomes even more valuable, not less as AI content is flooding our feeds.

You [00:59:00] are one of one, and your story might just help others who haven't found their voice yet.

And third, her example of building boundaries that become contagious When the leaders are modeling sustainable practices, it gives everyone permission to do the same.

If Jodi's story resonated with you, here is how you can stay connected to this movement. First, review this podcast please and share it. Subscribe to the new Ambition newsletter for weekly snackable tools in your inbox that will help you lead and live healthier. 

You can find all of Jodi's work everywhere that Jodi is in the show notes, her marketing consultancy, her newsletter, Jodi Talks and Yes. Yes. The AP Taylor Swift podcast where she proves with her co-hosts that overanalyzing lyrics is both an art and a science. 

The Future of Work is being written right now and it's gonna take all of us working together. To make work make sense for women in tech. [01:00:00] Thank you so much for being part of the conversation and for choosing to lead differently. I'm Jen Phillips and this is the New Ambition. Until next time, remember, your sustainable success matters, and so do you.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Jen Phillips

Host